Curse

Ensign · Aug 21, 2005, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Not that I really think it's a debate - the gratuitious spike damage from Eviscerate is the scariest thing an Axe has to offer. But the mathematics behind the over time debate have a lot of useful information that I'd like to go over.

First off, an adrenal attack *does* charge itself. So while every adrenal skill is going to require an extra hit up front, over time a given skill can be used as often as its adrenal cost. Cleave gets used every four hits, Eviscerate every 7. Since that first hit is universal it doesn't skew the balance for anyone and can safely be ignored.

Since we're working over time we're interested in average damage. Since every Axe Warrior worth talking about has a 16 in Axe Mastery we'll use that as our basis, with a 10 in Strength as that's a pretty typical value for that attribute. The critical hit percentage of an axe at level 16 is roughly 24% (critical percentage is roughly 1.5% * attribute level for level 20 on level 20, with a minimum chance of around 1-2%. The percentage when there's a level disparity is a nightmare that I'm still working on.)

Thus we get these numbers:

Average Axe Hit (No Skill): 35.55 damage
Average Axe Skill (No Bonus Damage): 39.44 damage
Average Cleave: 65.44 damage
Average Eviscerate: 81.44 damage
Average Penetrating Blow: 64.76 damage
Average Executioner's Strike: 81.44 damage

It's trivial to get the average per hit damage if you only have one of these skills, being spammed as often as it comes up. It's just the damage from the skill, plus the damage from all of the strikes up to that skill (adrenaline cost -1 times), divided by the adrenal cost of the skill:

Average Cleave Series: 43.02 Damage
Average Eviscerate Series: 42.10 Damage
Average Penetrating Blow Series: 41.39 Damage
Average Executioner's Strike Series: 41.28 Damage

Or in terms of the bonus:

Average Cleave Bonus: 7.47 Damage
Average Eviscerate Bonus: 6.56 Damage
Average Penetrating Bonus: 5.84 Damage
Average Executioner's Bonus: 5.74 Damage

So if you're just using a single attack elite, Cleave will eke out just over an extra DPS over Eviscerate under Frenzy.

With me so far? Good. Now it's time to start mixing in multiple attack skills. Again, we're using attaks as often as they come up and averaging over the number of attacks.

For two adrenal skills with adrenaline costs A1 and A2, the maximally efficient over time attack chain involves ((A1-1)*(A2-1)) normal attacks, (A2-1) uses of adrenal skill #1, and (A1-1) uses of adrenal skill #2. Dividing by the number of total attacks gives the following average damages:

Average Cleave + Penetrating Series: 46.45 Damage
Average Cleave + Executioner's Series: 46.74 Damage
Average Eviscerate + Penetrating Series: 46.10 Damage
Average Eviscerate + Executioner's Series: 46.39 Damage
Average Penetrating + Executioner's Series: 45.50 Damage

Or in terms of the bonus:

Average Cleave + Penetrating Bonus: 10.91 Damage
Average Cleave + Executioner's Bonus: 11.19 Damage
Average Eviscerate + Penetrating Bonus: 10.56 Damage
Average Eviscerate + Executioner's Bonus: 10.85 Damage
Average Penetrating + Executioner's Bonus: 9.95 Damage

The gap between Cleave and Eviscerate narrows when you add a second skill to the mix, and Executioner's, while slightly weaker than Penetrating over time by itself, is suddenly a noticible upgrade. What changed? The interactions between the adrenal skills.

When you're using more than one adrenal skill, each of your adrenal skills is used less frequently than it would be if it was the only adrenal skill on your bar. This is simply because each use of an adrenal skill costs you a strike of adrenaline from each of your skills, and even though you'll get that strike back if the attack hits you're just breaking even.

The lower an adrenal skill's cost, the more frequently it is used, and the bigger a tax it puts upon the rest of your adrenal skills. On the other hand, attacks with a high adrenal cost are used less frequently, and end up having a much smaller impact on your other attack skills. On the other hand, the higher cost adrenal skills are hit harder by the more spammable attack skills - the needier attacks get spammed more often, and the high cost skills take longer and longer to charge.

Some attack percentages to illustrate:

Cleave % when used alone: 25%
Cleave % with Penetrating Attack: 21.05%
Cleave % with Executioner's Strike: 22.58%
Eviscerate % when used alone: 14.3%
Eviscerate % with Penetrating Attack: 11.76%
Eviscerate % with Executioner's Strike: 12.73%

Cleave Usage Reduction from Penetrating Attack: 15.79%
Cleave Usage Reduction from Executioner's Strike: 9.68%
Eviscerate Usage Reduction from Penetrating Attack: 17.65%
Eviscerate Usage Reduction from Executioner's Strike: 10.91%

So Eviscerate, with its higher adrenal cost, gets cut into more by adding another skill than Cleave, while Penetrating Attack cuts into the effectiveness of your elite more than Executioner's Strike. Cleave, of course, similarly cuts into the effectiveness of your other attack skills.

From this the initial numbers start to make more sense - While Cleave and Penetrating Attack were the best two by themselves, their low adrenal costs conflict with each other and create for a much weaker combination overall. Eviscerate and Executioner's Strike, on the other hand, interfere with each other minimally so their combination is that much stronger.

What's telling in the debate is how close all of these numbers are. The elite spammable Cleave, in combination with the low impact Executioner's, is only 1.24 damage per hit stronger than just using the two non-elite attacks.

Ok, now it's time for the show: mixing up three damage skills for maximum damage output.

Same assumptions as before - you use your adrenal skills as often as possible. The math is a little messy. For adrenal skills 1, 2, and 3 with adrenaline costs A1, A2, and A3, respectively, you end up with an attack series containing ((A1-1)*(A2-1)*(A3-1)) normal attacks, ((A2-1)*(A3-1)) uses of skill 1, ((A1-1)*(A3-1)) uses of skill 2, and ((A1-1)*(A2-1)) uses of skill 3. Divide by the total attacks for the average damage. That gives us the following combinations:

Average Cleave + Penetrating + Executioner's Series: 49.35 Damage
Average Eviscerate + Penetrating + Executioner's Series: 49.34 Damage

and bonuses:

Average Cleave + Penetrating + Executioner's Bonus: 13.80 Damage
Average Eviscerate + Penetrating + Executioner's Bonus: 13.79 Damage

Virtually identical. What happened here? Cleave playing poorly with other damage skills really started to take a toll, it's spammability cutting into your other attack skills enough to wipe out any benefit you'd get over using the slower but more synergistic Eviscerate. While Cleave is still the best damage over time tool in a max damage configuration, it's grip on that distinction is tenuous at best.

There's one more set of numbers I'd like to go over since I think it demonstrates the all of the issues in one nice little package - an elite attack plus a normal attack, plus Disrupting Chop:

Average Cleave + Penetrating + Disrupting Series: 45.67 Damage
Average Cleave + Executioner's + Disrupting Series: 45.87 Damage
Average Eviscerate + Penetrating + Disrupting Series: 45.28 Damage
Average Eviscerate + Executioner's + Disrupting Series: 45.47 Damage

The bonus damage over normal attacks yet again:

Average Cleave + Penetrating + Disrupting Series: 10.12 Damage
Average Cleave + Executioner's + Disrupting Series: 10.32 Damage
Average Eviscerate + Penetrating + Disrupting Series: 9.73 Damage
Average Eviscerate + Executioner's + Disrupting Series: 9.93 Damage

And one last statistic - the percentage of your attacks that interrupt if you use all three attacks as often as they come up:

Disrupting Chop Percentage with Cleave + Penetrating: 11.21%
Disrupting Chop Percentage with Cleave + Executioner's: 11.93%
Disrupting Chop Percentage with Eviscerate + Penetrating: 12.37%
Disrupting Chop Percentage with Eviscerate + Executioner's: 13.25%

There's a lot to look at here so we'll go over it piece by piece. First off, all of the conbinations with Penetrating Blow are strictly worse than the combinations with Executioner's Strike - they do less damage and disrupt less often. The taxing effects of multiple adrenal attacks does that combination in, so we can pretty much ignore those.

If we look at the gap between the Cleave and Eviscerate combos, it actually widens by adding Disrupting Chop into the series. Why is that? Well look at what we know already. Lower cost adrenal skills weaken higher cost skills more than lower cost skills are weakened by higher cost ones. Cleave, being more spammable than Eviscerate, has it's damage boost toned down noticibly less than Eviscerate's. The difference is in the Disrupting Chop, as seen in the percentages. While Disrupting Chop weakens Cleave far less than Eviscerate, Cleave weakens Disrupting Chop far more than Eviscerate does. So in the whole, the effect is that the lower cost adrenal skills tend to express themselves more - in this case, Disrupting Chop is the dominant feature of a Chop + Eviscerate series, while Cleave is the key feature of its own series. Thus, Eviscerate creates a more disruptive chain with Disrupting Chop, while Cleave tends to keep its damage up better.

There are the numbers that are relevant to this debate. While they might not solve anything, they should at least serve as a guide, with the general principles outlined here giving some perspective on how these skills work, on their own and with each other.

Take care.

Peace,
-CxE

***Addendum - Adrenaline Boosts***

The use of adrenaline boosting skills can create some interesting chains, since hitting with an adrenal attack will end up charging your other adrenal skills in the process. This section will look at triple-attack chains while under two excellent adrenaline buffs, "For Great Justice!" and Dark Fury.

Under "For Great Justice!" you'll gain 150% of normal adrenaline from each hit (the skill description is bugged). Because of the fractional adrenaline costs and gains, it takes several hits for you to establish a repeating rhythm with multiple attack skills. There are several repeating sequences you can use, but the ones with the highest average damage output for each skill are as follows:

Cleave:

Hit, Cleave, Hit, Penetrating, Cleave, Hit, Executioner's, Cleave, Hit, Penetrating, Cleave, Hit, Hit, Cleave, Executioner's, Penetrating.

Average Damage of the Cleave Sequence: 56.10 Damage Per Hit

Eviscerate:

Hit, Hit, Penetrating, Hit, Eviscerate, Hit, Executioner's, Penetrating, Hit, Hit, Eviscerate, Penetrating, Hit, Hit, Executioner's, Penetrating, Hit, Eviscerate, Hit, Penetrating, Hit, Hit, Executioner's, Eviscerate, Penetrating, Hit, Hit, Hit, Eviscerate, Penetrating, Executioner's.

Average Damage for the Eviscerate Sequence: 55.47 Damage Per Hit

So Cleave comes out slightly ahead under sustained use of "For Great Justice!".

Then there's Dark Fury, which gives you an extra strike of adrenaline with each hit you land. Like with "For Great Justice!", there are several repeating options that you can use but these are the best ones:

For Cleave:

Hit, Cleave, Penetrating, Hit, Cleave, Hit, Executioner's, Cleave, Penetrating, Hit, Cleave, Hit, Cleave, Executioner's, Penetrating, Hit, Cleave, Hit, Cleave, Penetrating, Executioner's.

Average Damage of the Cleave Sequence: 57.63 Damage Per Hit

For Eviscerate:

Hit, Hit, Eviscerate, Penetrating, Hit, Executioner's, Hit, Eviscerate, Penetrating, Hit, Hit, Executioner's, Eviscerate, Penetrating, Hit, Hit, Eviscerate, Penetrating, Executioner's.

Average Damage of the Eviscerate Sequence: 58.61 Damage Per Hit

Which elite is better under an adrenaline boost? On the whole an adrenaline boost doesn't affect either elite more. Which elite comes out ahead in numical analysis depends entirely upon which sustainable sequence you choose to use, and each one fluctuates by 1-2 damage per hit. In other words, one performing better than the other under an adrenal boost is a product of noise, not one being fundamentally superior under an adrenal boost, so just use the results without an adrenal boost when making your comparisons.

pagansaint · Aug 21, 2005, 11:03 PM // 23:03

VERY nice info.

Good reference for making builds using bonuses from secondary since their durations would effect the series for each combo deifferently.

I'd say sticky this and make one for the popular sword and hammer attacks each.

If you need help crunching numbers I'll do some if you do decide to do that.

Allmightybob · Aug 21, 2005, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Why did they nerf Cleave and adrenaline gain? Wasn't it enough to nerf the conjures and Warrrior's Cunning (among some other things)? I just never remembered warriors being complained about alot in beta, except the W/Mo....... which was a class of it's own.

coleslawdressin · Aug 21, 2005, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Since every Axe Warrior worth talking about has a 16 in Axe Mastery we'll use that as our basis,

Ensign, have my babiez plx

nice info

entropy · Aug 21, 2005, 11:25 PM // 23:25

... I'm sry but i didn't understand much of it after reading it 4 times I got up to Understood it till their. Got a bit into what you meant about the skills weakening

So if you're just using a single attack elite, Cleave will eke out just over an extra DPS over Eviscerate under Frenzy
Then it went down hill with the percentages. lol

Tigris Of Gaul · Aug 21, 2005, 11:34 PM // 23:34

So, if you're an axe warrior, what're the best skills for you to use in a spike, in order? Eviscerate, Executioner's, Penetrating? Where should the Deep Wound come into play?

Tuna · Aug 21, 2005, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Muwahaha, I was right, cleave does better in the 3 adren dmg skill setup by .01 dps! Take that eviserate lovers

White Designs · Aug 21, 2005, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy

... I'm sry but i didn't understand much of it after reading it 4 times I got up to Understood it till their. Got a bit into what you meant about the skills weakening

So if you're just using a single attack elite, Cleave will eke out just over an extra DPS over Eviscerate under Frenzy
Then it went down hill with the percentages. lol

Basically, the math says that Eviscerate is a much better choice.

pagansaint · Aug 22, 2005, 12:14 AM // 00:14

eviscerate should be the first skill used in the spike chain, doing even "more" damage with its deepwound by decreasing max hitpoints by 20%

At the end of the chain adding axe rake would be wise, after that they'll want to run.

ElderAtronach · Aug 22, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Ensign: was the 20% max health from deep wound figured into average damage calculations with eviscerate? If not, then from the math (if it's correct) eviscerate would be the better elite to take, if only for the deep wound. On a teambuild, I think I'd only have one person bring evisc while any other axe warriors would bring cleave for the extra (if slight) DPS over time.

varyag · Aug 22, 2005, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Since every Axe Warrior worth talking about has a 16 in Axe Mastery

Nice article except this unsupported line. I recall reading about damage amplification with attributes - you reach 100% at a certain number, at 9% increments, and then the increment drops to +4.5% damage per point and isn't really worth it.

Insignificant increase for skills compared to the sacrifice.

White Designs · Aug 22, 2005, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Critical Hits are why you always want 16 in the primary weapon attribute.

Ensign · Aug 22, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigris Of Gaul

So, if you're an axe warrior, what're the best skills for you to use in a spike, in order? Eviscerate, Executioner's, Penetrating? Where should the Deep Wound come into play?

I'm of the belief that the Deep Wound needs to come the attack before the fatal blow. This is because the health loss from a Deep Wound does not trigger until the next hit on the target (bug?), so putting it on the target right before the killing blow gives you the strongest 'spike', as well as giving your opponent the least time to remove the Deep Wound. So to spike the hardest, I'd want to use Penetrating, Eviscerate, then Executioner's Strike, in that order. Eviscerate -> Executioner's is the strongest spike available, and I can see arguements for putting the Penetrating on either end of it (whittle them down a bit before the big spike, or get a stronger hit to finish 'em off if the spike doesn't do it)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Muwahaha, I was right, cleave does better in the 3 adren dmg skill setup by .01 dps! Take that eviserate lovers

It's actually 0.009881381 damage per *hit* better. Total WTFPWNage if I ever saw it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

Ensign: was the 20% max health from deep wound figured into average damage calculations with eviscerate?

No, that's just raw damage. The 20% health drop from Eviscerate, or the constant re-application of Deep Wound on the target over time, was left out of these numbers entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

If not, then from the math (if it's correct) eviscerate would be the better elite to take

Yep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

On a teambuild, I think I'd only have one person bring evisc while any other axe warriors would bring cleave for the extra (if slight) DPS over time.

That's the popular viewpoint. Personally, I don't understand why someone would give up the ability to absolutely mangle someone with upwards of 200 damage in less than a second, as well as weaken all of their other adrenal skills, for .5 DPS or whatever trivial over time boost they might get from Cleave. Can anyone explain why anyone would play Cleave over Eviscerate, well, ever?

Peace,
-CxE

Phades · Aug 22, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by varyag

Nice article except this unsupported line. I recall reading about damage amplification with attributes - you reach 100% at a certain number, at 9% increments, and then the increment drops to +4.5% damage per point and isn't really worth it.

Insignificant increase for skills compared to the sacrifice.

Spreading the points around on a warrior doesnt make alot of sense, due to the nature of most other skill lines not having a lasting effect in amplifying the damage. There are a select few that do, but are better used on a different character, which allows the warrior to focus on moving and applying melee attacks.

Aug 22, 2005, 12:45 AM // 00:45

The reason for 16 attribute isnt for the attack damage from regular weapon swings, its for the damage on attack skills.

Ensign · Aug 22, 2005, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by varyag

Nice article except this unsupported line. I recall reading about damage amplification with attributes - you reach 100% at a certain number, at 9% increments, and then the increment drops to +4.5% damage per point and isn't really worth it.

Raw weapon damage is boosted by 9.05% per attribute level until attribute 12. After that, it's boosted by 3.53% per attribute level, for a net base damage bonus of 14.87% You also get another four attribute levels worth of damage out of your attack skills, and your critical hit chance rises from 18% at level 12 to 24% at level 16. Not counting the skills, you're looking at an aggregate 18.86% damage boost from going to level 16 over level 12.

An average Eviscerate / Executioner's Spike at 12/12 Weapon/Strength will deal 127.35 damage. That same spike at 16/10 deals 153.09 damage. That's a 20.2% damage increase. For the sake of comparison, the difference between a level 16 Chain Lightning and a level 12 Chain Lightning is 29.3% damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by varyag

Insignificant increase for skills compared to the sacrifice.

What are you sacrificing? Tactics? Not a whole lot of skills you want there. Strength? The passive benefit is trivial and you get a bigger boost from your weapon skills, too. Health for the Superior rune? Please. Your secondary attribute? Just what are you doing that requires a secondary attribute level over 10? No, running a PvP Warrior without 16 in his weapon attribute is akin to running an Air Spiker without 16 in Air Magic - the only 'sacrifice' is when you're not dealing max damage because you wanted to be cute. Real Warriors pump that weapon to 16 and never look back.

Peace,
-CxE

ElderAtronach · Aug 22, 2005, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

That's the popular viewpoint. Personally, I don't understand why someone would give up the ability to absolutely mangle someone with upwards of 200 damage in less than a second, as well as weaken all of their other adrenal skills, for .5 DPS or whatever trivial over time boost they might get from Cleave. Can anyone explain why anyone would play Cleave over Eviscerate, well, ever?

Correct me if I'm wrong but deep wound doesn't stack. If there are multiple axe warriors (hypothetical) focus hitting a single target in an 8v8 situation, wouldn't the extra deep wound effects be wasted? You yourself recommend deep wound be put on the next-to-last hit on the target, so I would think that the extra bit of DPS from Cleave chains would make it a quicker finish.

On the other hand, would tasking the warriors to each go after a separate target and destroy them with evisc be more effective?

Aug 22, 2005, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Spike different targets. A buffed axe warrior with Eviscerate and Penetrating Blow does have the ability to solo a monk.

Tuna · Aug 22, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14

I've been able to solo most monks with a buffed cleave warrior, but it looks like I'm gonna have to switch to eviscerate now

Ensign · Aug 22, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

Correct me if I'm wrong but deep wound doesn't stack. If there are multiple axe warriors (hypothetical) focus hitting a single target in an 8v8 situation, wouldn't the extra deep wound effects be wasted?

Yep. The second Deep Wound doesn't do anything. That really doesn't bother me but I guess it bothers some people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

so I would think that the extra bit of DPS from Cleave chains would make it a quicker finish.

That's where the misunderstanding is, then. The extra DPS that everyone seems to care so much about only matters over the very long term. Over the course of 30 seconds, with Frenzy running nonstop against a stationary target, Cleave + Executioner's is going to deal around 12 more damage than Eviscerate + Executioner's. When you're looking at dealing well over 1500 damage in that timeframe, I don't think that +12 damage is particularly relevant.

Now, what I do find interesting is the amount of damage that a Warrior can deal in less than a second. That would be a Cleave/Eviscerate followed by an Executioner's Strike while under Frenzy. Eviscerate is going to deal 16 more damage in that one second spike than Cleave will.

If you want to be more abstract and actually look at the long term plan, instead of spiking people out, I still think that Eviscerate is better. Why? Because dropping a Deep Wound on your target four times over the course of 30 seconds is going to do a whole lot more than an extra 12 damage. More guys on the same target? More Deep Wounds to remove. We're talking about 12 damage on a target that's taking 1500+ damage per Warrior.

Personally? I'd use Eviscerate over Cleave even if it didn't give Deep Wound. Sustained damage over time isn't nearly as scary as gross damage spikes, and Eviscerate simply does spike better. If I had 3 Axe Warriors on the same target, I'd prefer that they all had Eviscerate, and used it all at the same time, because that's 32 more damage to pile onto a spike in under a second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

On the other hand, would tasking the warriors to each go after a separate target and destroy them with evisc be more effective?

If I wanted to do that I'd use hammers. Hammers are for getting solo kills because they bring their own disruption. Axes are for WTFPWNing people with gross damage spikes in focus fire situations. Cleave is for...eh, I really don't know what Cleave is for. That's why I don't use it.

Peace,
-CxE